Helga: You wake up in the morning and then what happens? Oh, put your headphones on, Peter.

Speaker 2: Indeed.

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Come on. Put your arms around you.

Speaker 4: I wanna hug you and hug you and hug you some more right through all these microphone cables.

Speaker 5: Go ahead.

Speaker 6: I know I'm in the right time, in the right space.

Helga: Do you feel that? I'm Helga Davis. I had the great honor of working with Jennifer Koh on the 25th-anniversary remount of Philip Glass and Robert Wilson's Einstein on the Beach. We shared a stage off and on for three and a half years. And I realized that I hadn't ever really had a chance to just sit down and talk with her. She's a very private person and I know that role. I know that role meant that she had to take care of herself in a particular way because we were all taking care of ourselves in very particular ways.

So I didn't get to see her a lot. But the thing that I do know and I remembered, is that we were all elevated by her playing. All of our performances became extraordinary performances in the presence of her bow. We didn't sing like that normally. We didn't dance that way. We didn't speak that way. And what I felt was that there was a very particular kind of listening going on, listening beyond the ears, beyond the heart. It was skin and bone and marrow kind of listening.

And I look forward every night to touching it, to being in such close proximity to so much magic. I welcome Jennifer Koh to the studio to just sit down and have a conversation with me about her playing, about her life, about her growing up, about her relationship to this thing that she does that is her life, that destroys her body, that makes music and joy and togetherness all over the world. This is Jennifer Koh. You were injured a lot during Einstein?

Jennifer: I was injured the entire run. I would just get so physically destroyed.

Helga: From-from playing, from that score in particular, or--?

Jennifer: Well, I think it would-- it started in Ann Arbor, uh, when we were doing that extensive rehearsal period.

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: Um, I-I think it was after the first day, which was like 14 hours. You know-

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: -we were just running so long. So I ended up with one of the most severe neck injuries and I couldn't- I couldn't even hold my head up. So the only way I could function was, uh, like lying in bed. And I was still in pain and I couldn't move, but I couldn't like, uh, be vertical at all. Um--

Helga: So you hid that?

Jennifer: I mean--

Helga: You did. I had no idea.

Jennifer: I think it was very challenging 'cause that was her first extensive rehearsal period. And I basically figure everyone is going through their own things. So I'm not gonna put my stuff on other performers. And in general, I kind of function like that. Also, I'm incredibly private. I mean, I did have to get, um, extensive physical therapy.

Helga: Therapy.

Jennifer: I mean 'cause I couldn't leave the hotel room 'cause I couldn't get-- I couldn't lift my body up so-- because I couldn't hold my neck on my shoulders, you know, I couldn't be vertical at all. And I literally just had to be like supine.

Helga: I came home from that first Ann Arbor thing.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And I went to my Rolfer friend. And she looked at me and my body was a perfect Z. And she said, "Helgaly, what the fuck kind of show are you doing?" And then I showed her all the-

Jennifer: [crosstalk] It's really demanding.

Helga: -things that we-

Jennifer: Physically demanding.

Helga: -that we were doing. And so-so it's interesting that you say the thing about your neck because also my neck, my head was in a different place than my neck.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And as you know, you just-- you go back and you-you keep compensating so the feet go out.

Jennifer: Everything goes.

Helga: And then everything starts to compensate on top of that in-including us, right? Because I-I am, uh-- like you, I don't complain about things. I don't tell people things. I don't- I don't share.

Jennifer: But I felt like everybody is trying to do everything they can and everybody is part of this larger organism including me, which was the reason I wanted to do Einstein because, you know, so much of what I do is so-solo stuff. So which, you know, by definition means alone. I-- what I loved about Einstein was that it was so clear. Like, there were just as many people backstage running the stage as there were on stage. And there were still numerous people on stage.

And I loved that part of it because everything, uh, became so defined that, you know, I was just a small part of a whole organism. So when I had, you know, my injuries, physical injuries, um, in Einstein, I didn't really talk about it because I knew everybody was going through their things. You know, the dancers were constantly dealing with their own injuries.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: You know, the singers were constantly, um, dealing with their own things. So you guys, um, were cons-- I-I mean everybody was going through this process 'cause it's-- I mean that's part of what I love-- I cherish about the memory of my experience at Einstein because, you know, it was so demanding on everybody and everybody, you know, whatever personal process they would have to go through to get there, everybody dedicated themselves in that way. And there's something so beautiful about that. I think it was also like 'cause you-you know, for me, in-in the Einstein character, I had to be completely still.

Helga: Right.

Jennifer: And then suddenly, it's like play presto for an hour.

Helga: [laughs]

Jennifer: You know, with the same three pitches and you can't change position.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: You're not changing speed. So physically, you know, just in terms of arms and everything, it's very, um, it's very demanding. It's demanding in a different way than, I don't know, playing Sibelius concerto, right? Um, but it's- it's very physically demanding in a very specific way. So I-I was-- I learned after that rehearsal run in Ann Arbor that I had to be incredibly, uh, conscious of-of, um, putting in place everything that I would physically need, um-

Helga: I--

Jennifer: -in order to do the performances.

Helga: I-I feel too, and you know, I've said this to you before and I've had other occasions on which to say it, but I do feel that you-you bring a thing to that music that-that's really important for us as humans. What I felt and feel when-when I'm in the- in your presence as a musician is that ev-everything and everyone gets lifted and elevated to a whole other thing that is beyond what's on a page, that's beyond, okay, I know I take 10 minutes to go from this entrance to that exit.

And I loved living inside those moments with you and feeling your part of the organism in influencing, encouraging, expanding my part of the organism. And that was just such an incredible thing, uh, to be a part of with you. And it's part of-of why I wanted also to talk to you because I think I felt in the time that we were doing the show that there was no time to say that to you.

Jennifer: First of all, that's so kind of you. And-- but it's, you know-- I think that again, we're going back to it's so demanding-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: -that I think everybody was exhausted. Like my ritual, like when we were on our tour run was I would just sleep almost all day, go to a rolling appointment and then show up like a couple of hours before the show to warm up slowly and then do makeup and then do the show, go to bed, [laughs], you know-

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: -like it was a very strict regimen. And I think we were all going through that, um, especially if we weren't in our teens and 20s.

[laughter]

I was like, "I don't understand how people are hooking up and doing all this stuff because like, this is exhausting." I was like, "I don't know where you're getting the energy to do this or the time."

Helga: But even-even that part of it, and-and I can say this too like that show changed a lot of my relationships with people-

Jennifer: Oh, interesting.

Helga: -uh, because it's so physically demanding and I think that no one understood or-or not everyone that I had hoped would understand understood that after 4 hours and 27 minutes, I know I don't want to call you, I don't want to Skype with you, I don't want to talk anymore.

Jennifer: [laughs] More. I can totally-- Well, that's the other thing. I mean, I think as, first of all, to kind of reference back to what you were saying about the performances, I mean, I think-- I feel like the great thing about art is that, and when you're in the performing arts, it's about constant empathy, right? You're always listening, um, and responding. Like, you have to be very open. So, you know, I think even in-- oh, God, I forgot the name.

One of the new plays where you are talking, and it would be-- I would hear you, right, and respond musically to the phrasing of your voice, of the phrasing of, you know, of the speed, the tempo. And I mean, that's the beauty of performing arts because it's always evolving and it's a living organism that only exists in that moment. And-and we as performers respond to that in order to be in this place, I think, um, to be so open in that way to a l-- there's a lot of people on stage. Um, there are a lot of performers on stage.

Of course, there are a lot of people in the hall, but-- and you have to be very exposed and open, um, to that energy, uh, for at least for me to do the kind of performance that I believe in and want to do. And it's exhausting, you know. I-I mean, aside from the actual physical performance that we're giving, um, being exposed emotionally in that way, I think is very taxing.

Helga: So you had swine flu, strep throat-

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

Helga: -and-

Jennifer: Pneumonia.

Helga: -and pneumonia all at the same time.

Jennifer: Oh, no. I had one time I had pneumonia, bronchitis, and strep throat.

Helga: Beautiful.

Jennifer: And it was amazing.

Helga: The-the holy- the holy trinity. But why do you think you were able to still play? Why did you still show up at the concert hall?

Jennifer: Well, first of all, I always wanna fulfill my commitments because, you know, the classical music books out years in advance and they're counting on you. So that's really important to me, to just, um, essentially, I made a promise that I would be there and I wanna keep that promise, but most of all, it's just-- I don't know. There's something about making music and there's something about, um, that kind of communication, which is so overwhelmingly, it's- it's like the essence of who everybody is.

And I think there's something so amazing in that kind of communication, in that kind of emotion, and that kind of nakedness, and that kind of vulnerability. Um, and when you're really making music in that-- in the way that I, you know, love making music, you know, um, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it in the world. That kind of ability to read, you know, if I make a metaphor, it's like you could just feel like the edge of somebody's hair and you're with- yo-you're with them the entire time, they're with you in that same way the entire time.

And it's- it's kind of almost in-in-- i-it's-it's, um, I suppose it's like the shared empathy and the shared v-visceral communication. Um, and I-I think in, you know, in society, I mean, we're talking about what, you know, I'm a very private person and we were talking about, you know, literally talking about what's going in-- on in one's life. And-and that's not something I do very often, um, with people I don't know, but with music, it's the absolute essence of who you are and-and feeling--

Helga: And what you feel. And what you feel.

Jennifer: Yeah. And the accumulation of everybody's personal experiences through their lives. And to be able to join with-with that with-with other human beings and communicate and be one essentially in that way, and be one with the audience also because there's something about live performance in which it's really about being absolutely present. It's almost-- it's this kind of, uh, incredible communal shared experience. Um, and-and there's nothing like it in the world.

Helga: A couple of times in this conversation, you've talked about visceral language. Yeah? And so I wanna know the relationship between the visceral virtuosity and what eventually comes out in your playing. Um, I know what visceral means, but what does it mean for you inside of your practice and of your performance?

Jennifer: First of all, I love-- I just love the word visceral [chuckles] but, um, I think what I--

Helga: Because.

Jennifer: Well, I would say like be-- in the- in, I mean- I mean, sometimes when I've gone through difficult personal times-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: -uh, my friends- my friends were surprised that I would go back to work. That I just went back to work. Um, not surprised, but I-I remembered, like, saying something like, it's such a relief because there's something about rehearsing and performing in which you have to be so totally present. Um, I think most of the time, at least in my life, [chuckles] in my- in my head, I'm usually worried about stuff that I should have done or should be doing, or, you know, I'm s-- uh, you-you're always thinking, right?

And you're always thinking, uh, "I need to do this. I need to do the laundry. I need to-- I should have done this." Uh, and, you know, um, so, life is quite hectic in general. Um, and that-- and having the space to just be absolutely present with the music is-- it's just a wonderful space to be in because you can't truly be empathetic and-and open and vulnerable if-- and-and be able to, uh, you know, almost conjoin with other musicians in a mental space if you're worried about your own-- if you're w-worried about other stuff.

Um, so, you-- everybody has to really bring themselves to a place where they're totally present. So a lot of times, we'll feel things more strongly on the inside, and we think, I don't know that we're-- maybe we're doing a huge-- we're pulling back a lot in time or that we're making a huge, uh, you know, crescendo, which is getting louder or a huge diminuendo. And actually oftentimes, um, it'll be smaller than what you think it was, right? And so, um, also coming to that point where 99% of what you do is listening.

So when-- I guess when I use the word open, it-it's that you're not paying attention to yourself so much. You're really-- most of your consciousness is-is what everything sounds like around you and-and, um, and just responding to that. So I think the reason, you know, we as performers we practice and we work and even do things like rehearsals is so that in that moment of live performance, um, we can just be concentrated on what's important, which is-is the communication.

Helga: Communication. Yeah.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Helga: Would you say this process is healing in some way, cathartic for you?

Jennifer: Music?

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: Um, you know, you know how some people say like, "Oh, I just need to go on this one great vacation and I'm just gonna focus on that, right?"

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And I remember when I started meditating how the idea was that you can actually save that space for yourself every day, that it shouldn't just be that like once every five years I go on vacation and that's when I'll be happy. Um, so using the word catharsis feels very rare, you know.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And but it's every day, you know, it's like even like I like the entire process. I like, you know, and I'm-- and I do carry a lot of repertoire, but part of what I like about that is that there's always a point in time where I sound like crap, you know? Even if you've done a-a performance at, you know, uh, let's say a very prepared level of a piece you know really well, at the same time, I like that process of just starting to learn the notes of some other piece. Um, because you're in touch with every part of that process all the time.

And I don't know if it's like the masochistic part of myself, but I-I don't wanna live on this plane where it's just, um, it's just about performing or thinking, "Oh, this is great. I'm great, we're all great." Yeah. I don't, maybe that sounds wrong.

Helga: Yeah. But there's- there's also the fragility there. That's what I find in-in the beginning of learning the next thing.

Jennifer: Yeah. And you sound terrible.

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: Or I do.

Helga: Yeah, I do too.

Jennifer: At least when I start something.

Helga: I do too.

Jennifer: And--

Helga: But we're so fragile there.

Jennifer: But the exciting part, well, the first part it's like, I'm like yes, you do sound like, you know, I'll tell myself, "You sound terrible." Um, but you know, it's part of this larger process. So there's- there's such a long, um, there's so many aspects to the process of preparation for performance. And so yes, it starts out sounding just absolutely horrible but there's also a part of me, and you have to be honest with yourself. Um, but there's also part of me that likes that stage for another reason and not only keeping in touch with the fact that, um, you're very human, right?

That you-you don't always sound good. Like it's possible to sound terrible, which happens every day for me and, um, but it's also when you're at that beginning stage and sometimes the concept stage, and this for me is like the studying stage where the possibilities are endless. It's just there, it's infinite. And there's something to me that's beautiful. Like when I get super excited about projects, it's oftentimes because that very first stage like I'll have no idea. Well, that's not true. I kind of have a general concept of what I wanna do, but it's very exciting because it could be anything, right? And--

Helga: And if you take all the steps, it may be very different than what you imagined it would be.

Jennifer: And it always, that's always part of it.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And I don't wanna know what I'm gonna do in five years. Like what I like about being in the arts is that I have no idea what I'm gonna do in 5 years, um, or 10 years but I want it to be like that because if it was predictable then it would mean that I'm not evolving or changing or thinking of something different at all. And, um, so I-I really, I-I value that part. Um, but yeah, I like the beginning stages too where everything 'cause you have to admit that you're terrible at that point and but it keeps you like, I feel like it keeps me grounded, you know?

Helga: Mm-hmm. Did you ever wanna have children or anything like that because, and here's why I'm asking this. In order to do what you do, in order for me to do what I do in the way that I do it, or in the way that you do it, I don't feel-- you know, I have a tree, right? I have a tree in my apartment, and that's about all I can manage. I-I can water that tree and I know that my coming and going will not adversely affect the tree. I don't have a dog, I don't have a cat, I don't have anything else that needs or demands my presence in a particular way.

And so I'm wondering if the same thing is true for you. I couldn't do both things. I know that there are people who do both things and do both things well, and those kids are gonna be fine but I never felt that I had that. And so I'm just asking you-

Jennifer: I mean I think-

Helga: -from that place.

Jennifer: -when that subject had come up for me before, I was with a partner that wanted me to stop working, um, and that was not something I was willing to do. So unfortunately, I was never in that situation, um, where I felt like it was the right situation. Um--

Helga: I mean I-I wasn't either. I feel that when faced with the choice, uh, I chose myself.

Jennifer: I don't know if it's that simple to say that you chose yourself because I-I felt like art is, I mean I think for some people like having kids is like their project in life, right?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And we make stuff all the time, you know? And so in a way, our work is like our baby.

Helga: Yeah.

Jennifer: And that's our children, you know what we-- so that-that part of our lives, I think is quite fulfilled.

Helga: It feels so obvious when you say it, but I hadn't thought about it in that way.

Jennifer: Yeah, and I remember, you know, one of my closest, uh, friends since I was like 11 years old, um, and she's still my closet, one of my closest friends, and she-she has two kids. And I remember she said I-- 'cause I was going through that time of being like, "Well, should I? I-I don't know. "And she's the one that said, "Jenny, you know always had this goal." She was like the rest of us, we might, you know, move to another city because our boyfriend is there. She was like you would've never done that which is she's absolutely true. I mean certainly not when I was in like college.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: Like you're not, like I felt like, well, these things are not serious right now. I would never do that.

Helga: [chuckles]

Jennifer: Um, and you know, so, and she was like so-and she was like so everything, you know, a lot of times when we talk, I'm talking about like different ideas or projects I might have. I mean, of course, we talk about personal stuff and she was like the happiest you are is when you're talking about how you're gonna put together this next project.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And she was like, and every time this other subject comes up, you're like, "Mm, should I? Shouldn't I?" You know, "Is this the right thing? Is this not the right thing? Is this possible?" And she was like, "Trust me."

Helga: Do you have any feeling about the-the makeup of the American orchestra? What am I trying to ask you? I'm trying to ask you if you- if you feel that you were still part of some continuum of Asian-American women who are trying to knock down the doors of-of, uh, discrimination in the orchestra. Yeah. You know, you wrote that question.

Jennifer: Well, let me put it this way. I think--

Helga: Put it a better way.

Jennifer: Um, I, I've been told in-in-in from orchestra members and from concert masters and stuff that my nickname is the trifecta, um, plus one and they were like, and they said, you know, "We have respect for you because we know that you weren't wanted in this business."

Helga: Hmm.

Jennifer: Right, "Because you're female, you're American, you're Asian, and then the plus one is, and you don't sleep your way there." Oh, we can like leave that part out.

Helga: No, we can't leave that out at all.

Jennifer: Because honestly, I've never--

Helga: People need to know that.

Jennifer: I've never mixed those, um, I've never mixed that into-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: -anything that I do.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And I-- and it's funny because orchestras can see that.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: You know, because they see the interactions very closely. They see it in rehearsals, they see, you know, and, um, and I've been very, very fortunate, um, because there have been people in the business, um, that have, of course, helped me. And there are people that I love very dearly, um, and very loyal to still and, um, but it's not an easy path. The reason I think this is a crucial and possibly exciting time is because it's-- we have an opportunity to have our orchestras reflect our communities and have relevance to the communities and cities that we work in. And if we don't actually show that kind of diversity on stage, if we don't support that kind of diversity, um, we are just an old museum piece.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: I mean, whether that's in the form of doing new music, um, and-and performing music that actually is an extension and a mirror of our society and culture, contemporary culture, or whether it's the fact that it doesn't-- we don't look like any city that we exist in. Um, I think it's problematic because we will lose our, you know, our place in culture. And it's like, I feel in some ways, like classical music hasn't been friends with contemporary culture for so long. So, you know, they started blind auditions in the US, um, as you know, an act of feminism, right?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: And there was even a point where they told women not to wear heels because people could tell when they were walking into those blind auditions, if it was a woman from the sound of their shoes. So they were asked to like remove their shoes so it would actually really truly be blind. And that's when women started getting in into orchestras and that's when people of color, that's when Asian-Americans or Asians started getting into orchestras also, but that blind system only happened in the United States.

Helga: Hmm.

Jennifer: I mean, it's amazing to me when I look at the New York Philharmonic and it actually fills me with pride because [laughs] like the entire strings-- most of the string section is Asian.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: Um, you know, there were a lot of people that-that, um, broke down those barriers in orchestras. 'Cause then it's a matter of getting tenure and you are there, but there's no double-blind, there's no blind for soloists.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: There's nothing blind for us, you know? So, um, it's a different situation.

Helga: Is there anything else you feel like you want to- you want to say about anything really?

Jennifer: Well, I guess for like referencing back. I think like the most important thing, and I wish I had had this when I was younger, is like trusting yourself as an artist. Like we're all individuals, you know. We're- we all have very unique perspectives. We have unique experiences. We have unique childhoods. And, um, I think trusting ourselves and that individual voice, um, which everybody has, you know, because we all come from very different things, and we have different personalities, and different backgrounds, and-and to come to a place where we can actually engage with-- we are and our histories.

And realizing that our experiences, um, are gonna resonate because it's really about being a human being in the end, you know? Um, and-and that our experiences are our internal lives, um, because we're, you know, members of this human-- race of human beings. Um, if we speak in a very true and visceral way, uh, people will relate to that. I think, you know, being in the arts in a way, yeah, we-we do give up a lot, right? I-I feel like, I dedicated my entire life to this art form and I spent a lot of hours of every single day, and I don't really take time off.

Um, it's not like on the weekends we have off. I mean, even though-- I mean, yeah, we don't perform usually on Monday nights, although I have done that. But, um, you know, you still practice, you're still doing everything else. And, um, I remember somebody said to me, "Oh, if you were- if-if you worked this hard as like an investment banker, it's like just the pure number of hours," um, they were like, "You-you would be like a millionaire or something." And-- [laughs] but we don't care about that.

Helga: No. [laughs]

Jennifer: I mean maybe-maybe we should care more about it. 'Cause sometimes I feel like what we do should-should be valued in some way in society. Um, uh, because what we do is work, right?

Helga: It is.

Jennifer: And I do think that musicians and artists should be compensated for that work. Uh, so, uh, you know, it might not look like the same thing. It's not like we're walking into necessarily like an office from nine to five or something every day. But, um, I basically work all the time.

Helga: I was leaving my apartment the other day and one of my neighbors, on Sunday actually, and one of my neighbors said to me, "Where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to work." And he said, "Oh, I thought you were- [laughs] I thought you were a musician."

[laughter]

Jennifer: You have an actual job.

Helga: And it took all of me. [laughs] And I looked at him and I smiled and I said, "It is work. You know, quiet as it's kept. It is work. You have a great day." And I edited out all of the other--

Jennifer: Expletives that were happening in your head. I do that a lot. Although lately, I've just been like swearing all the time. My violist got really upset at me because she brought her kids to a rehearsal, and I was just like--

Helga: You were cursing a lot.

Jennifer: And I was cursing. I was like, "Fucking, goddamn shit." And she was like, "Jenni, my kids are there." And I was like, "Sorry. Fuck, sorry"

Helga: "Don't say what Aunt Jenni said." First or last thing, I want to do is say thank you for coming in and thank you for-for talking.

Jennifer: Thank you for having me. Thank you for inviting me.

Helga: And it's- it's really nice to sit down and have a moment to look at you really this closely in the eyes and-and just ask you about yourself, uh, to scratch a little bit the surface of the monster that you are.

Jennifer: [chuckles] Oh, God.

Helga: Such a monster. For all the singing that I do, for all the theater that I do, for all the rehearsing that I do, for all the practicing that I do, of scales of walking, of knowing where my body is in space, for all the work that I do in the gym to stay in shape, so that I can show up and do my work in a way that's free and new, that gives me availability to my body, to my mind, and to my spirit. I feel like none of it compares to what Jenni Koh is doing in the world with her body, with her music, with her instrument.

It's so great to sit down and talk with her. It was so great to share a stage with her. And today, I feel like I got a little bit closer to the person, Jenni Koh. Whether or not you've heard Jenni, perhaps there's something in this conversation that has inspired you, has inspired your creativity, has inspired some other way of thinking about who you are, and how you do what you do in the world. You can always email me at helga@wqxr.org or follow me on Facebook.

Announcer: This episode of Helga was produced by Julia Alsop and executive producer Alex Ambrose. It was mixed by Curtis Macdonald with help from Hannis Brown and original music by Alex Overington. Special thanks to Cindy Kim, Lorraine Maddox, Michael Elsesser, Jacqueline Cincotta, and John Chao.

 

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