Helga Davis: You wake up in the morning and then what happens? Oh, put your headphones on, Peter. Oh, yeah. Come on. Put your arms around. [laughter]

Speaker 2: I wanna hug you and hug you and hug you some more right through all these microphone cables.

Speaker 3: Go ahead.

Speaker 4: I know I'm in the right time in the right space.

Helga Davis: Do you feel that?

[music]

Helga Davis: I'm Helga Davis. Sometimes it happens that life will bring you together with people. Right? So I was invited to MASS MoCA, which is the Massachusetts, uh, Museum of Contemporary Art up in North Adams, Massachusetts, to just come and hang out for the day with a few other artists. And the idea was to look at Nick Cave's installation there. That's the visual artist, Nick Cave, not the singer, Nick Cave. And that installation is called Until. And in my usual form, I didn't even look to see who else was coming. I just said yes and got on a train and went.

Much to my delight, uh, in addition to Bill T. Jones and Carl Hancock Rux, there was also Solange Knowles, with whom I hid it off quite spectacularly. It was so great to meet her, to meet her eyes, to shake her hand. And we just started to have this conversation. And it was a conversation I knew we needed to continue. And right on the heels of her performance on Saturday Night Live, she came and here it is, our conversation.

[music]

Helga Davis: I'm so, so happy to see you.

Solange Knowles: Same.

Helga Davis: Okay, here we go.

Solange Knowles: Same.

Helga Davis: Hi, Solange.

Solange Knowles: Hello. Hello.

Helga Davis: Tell the people who you are. Lemme put my headphones on and-and be up in that.

Solange Knowles: I am Solange.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Yes, you are.

Solange Knowles: I am a singer, songwriter, and artist.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And, um, I'm really happy to be here with you today.

Helga Davis: It's-it's great to see you. It's really great to see you. So we were kind of having this conversation already. And I feel like what's also important about these conversations to me and what I took from you is that everything that you're saying, you may be dealing with a record company or with your-your life as an artist.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: But you are also a person. And everything that you were talking about is a thing that every person has somewhere in their lives. It's every relationship. Right? Because we're really talking about relationships.

Solange Knowles: Right.

Helga Davis: And so tell-tell me a little bit about, um, how you-- how you got in this thing.

Solange Knowles: Yes. Yes.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Uh, it's been a long journey.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: I started writing music when I was in fourth grade. I would write these little, uh, with just acapella ideas. And, uh, there was a statewide search from the United Way Foundation that they were looking for a student to write their new jingle. And so at my school, I remember seeing the flyer and, um, entering this contest. And I think there were about, I don't know, maybe 5,000 applicants. And I won second place. Um, and I got to write the United Way Jingle, um, regionally.

And that was kind of my first time realizing that I felt that my best way of communicating was through songwriting. Um, and from there, uh, I released an album when I was 15.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Solange Knowles: Yes. I was a baby girl. And, uh, I actually, um, wrote most of that record during a really transitional time in my life. I feel like the ages between like 13 and 17 are so loaded-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: -emotionally.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Um, that I just felt the need to get all of this out on wax. And I remember going to a lot of those sessions and producers, you know, having ready-made songs play for me when I would get to the studio and I would say, "Hey, you know, I actually write my own music." And of course, I was like a ninth grader and they'd be like, "Okay, well if you wanna change a word or two, you know--"

Helga Davis: That's cute.

Solange Knowles: "You can do that" And I was like, "No, I'm gonna sing you what I have in mind." And so that was like kind of my coming out. And that was a really challenging time because that was at the height of, you know, NSYNC, Britney Spears, Boy Band, just straight pop music. And, um, I think that it was a challenging time to have that point of view. And I also was going through that stage. You know, I had cut all my hair off. I was a vegan. Um, I was studying Rastafarian culture. I had taken a pilgrimage to Jamaica a couple of times and was like the suburban Rastafarian Solange.

[laughter]

Um, so I felt like I had so much, you know, um, to get out on that record. But timing is everything. And it-it was a really hard time for people to receive that. I remember in- - on my album cover, I actually of course have the red, Black, green, and yellow Nick cap. And it was just a strange time to-to really stand for that. And that wasn't who I was. Who-who are you at 15 anyway?

Helga Davis: Well-well wait a minute now. [laughter] Sorry. Helga begs to differ. If-if-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -you are making your own music-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -there-there is something you know.

Solange Knowles: Oh, for sure. For sure. And I stand by that record.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: As a songwriter especially, I feel like there's a certain ripeness at that age, um, that I was able to really contextualize things in a much more unfiltered and raw, um, way in terms of just being able to emotionally convey those messages without the outside noise of like, you know, how do I break this down in-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: -three minutes. It was just letting it out at that age.

Helga Davis: And were you signed to some-- to a big label?

Solange Knowles: I was. I was actually signed to the same label that I'm back on now, which is Columbia Records.

Helga Davis: Uh.

Solange Knowles: But it was a very different building and, uh, I obviously came from this very well-known family. And I think that it was just really confusing. It wasn't what they signed up for.

Helga Davis: [crosstalk] What do you think they signed up for? What-what do you think they signed up for?

Solange Knowles: Well, I think that during that time, again, that was at the height of the pop music [crosstalk] era.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And I think that-- you know, I think that they thought they were gonna get an approachable pop music, two step-ins. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Oh, they were so wrong.

Solange Knowles: They were wrong.

Helga Davis: They were so wrong.

Solange Knowles: I actually had like Brothers Johnson playing guitar on that album.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: They were like so wrong about what was what they signed up for.

Helga Davis: Yeah. Yeah.

Solange Knowles: But, you know, it was really so great and such. I'm so-- I feel so lucky and privileged that I got to have that opportunity as a young girl for my introduction to be me standing really firm in my vision and my voice and not compromising that. And, um, I think that it-- every step in stage has led to where I am now.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: So I appreciate that album. It was- it was called Solo Star. Um, [laughs] so that was that record. And then after that, I actually decided that I just wanted to be a songwriter.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: That I didn't have really any will to be leading the face, um, and the movement of-of the album itself that I really enjoy writing the music. And so I actually signed a publishing deal with Universal as a songwriter and I began to write a lot of songs for My Sister and for Destiny's Child and other artists. And I also thoroughly enjoyed writing pop music, um, in that genre of pop music. Cause I say that pop music is just popular music.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: You know, um, but I just didn't want to perform it. So I did that. Um, and then I grew up really quickly. I got married at 17.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Solange Knowles: I had my son when I was 18. I moved to Idaho and--

Helga Davis: Sorry. [laughter] Collective giggle.

Solange Knowles: I know. I know.

Helga Davis: What were you doing in Idaho?

Solange Knowles: My son's father was playing football at University of Idaho. We have been together since we were 13. We were madly in love, teenagers. And when he said he wanted to go to school there, I thought, okay, let's try it. Let's-let's try it out. And, um, it was really insanely difficult [laughs] to--

Helga Davis: Because?

Solange Knowles: Well, for starters, it was I think a population of about 15,000, around 14,000 of that population were college students.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Solange Knowles: And here I was, I was a little tour baby. I have been on the road since I was 13, so I didn't really know how to be around college kids.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Especially having a newborn son. Um, and having this publishing deal, which as you know, you have to deliver a certain amount of songs a year. Not deliver, you have to place a certain amount of songs a year.

Helga Davis: Ah, so not just write.

Solange Knowles: Yes, you can write 100 songs, but you have to place, you know, 15 or-or 10 or however many that year on albums.

Helga Davis: Oh.

Solange Knowles: So it's an incredible amount of pressure.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: I thought you just had to write them.

Solange Knowles: Oh, no.

Helga Davis: Oh.

Solange Knowles: No. Yeah. That-that contract-

Helga Davis: That would be too easy.

Solange Knowles: -is for how many you actually place. So you know--

Helga Davis: So the hustle is on you-

Solange Knowles: The hustle is on me.

Helga Davis: -to get people to listen, to want to record.

Solange Knowles: To sell our songs.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Oh.

Solange Knowles: Yeah. So that was at 18 years old, you know-

Helga Davis: With a baby.

Solange Knowles: -with a baby.

Helga Davis: And a partner who is in the school-

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: In Idaho.

Solange Knowles: Snowy, snowy Idaho.

Helga Davis: I got the picture.

Solange Knowles: Yes. But I remember those days of going and my baby in the carrier, just hoping that he wouldn't make noise while I was, you know, demoing out these songs. And luckily I did reach all of my placements that year, but I had a plethora of music that just was not getting-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Solange Knowles: -touched.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And I was-- um, I think my introduction into motherhood, I was really wanting to connect with my mother. And my mother was actually in a little singing group. She would be-- she would raise an eyebrow that I said little, let me take that back. [laughter] She was-

Helga Davis: We'll edit that out.

Solange Knowles: - in a singing group.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: In the '60s, a local singing group called The Vel-Tones.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And, uh, they were modeled off of The Supremes. So I felt a strong connection to kind of revisit that. And so I started writing these songs that were kind of mirroring that era of '60 soul and pop music. And, um, they just were not getting touched. I would send them and they'd pick the other ones.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: So by the end of that process, I had maybe 25 of those songs. And here I was saying, I didn't wanna be an artist anymore, but these songs have to be heard. And, um, I [crosstalk]

Helga Davis: And we talk a lot about the universe creating a situation for us to step into. And there was yours, right?

Solange Knowles: Yeah. Yeah. That was it.

Helga Davis: And so?

Solange Knowles: And so I said, okay, well I'm gonna package this as an album, shop it around, see if there's any interest, but I'm gonna do it my way this time. [chuckles] And so now I've grown-ish-

Helga Davis: Uh-huh, 18.

Solange Knowles: Yes. Grown-ish. [laughs]

Helga Davis: And grown-ish. Okay. Got it.

Solange Knowles: And, uh, you know, I feel like I would be able to navigate this better. So, uh, I shopped it around, didn't have a lot of interest from labels, but there was one guy, uh, his name was Shawn. He goes by Tubby. He was in A&R Interscope Records, and he said that he wanted to come down and, you know, hear the record. He had heard just a couple of songs. And, um, by that time I had been transitioning back to Houston where I'm from. Um, my son's father and I were having some issues. I needed that hometown support system.

Um, so maybe like, I would say I shopped around for like a year. So maybe a year after that. Tubby came down. He heard the record. Um, he loved it, but he definitely felt like it needed some more development. So I spent, um, maybe another year taking the same sound, the same sonics. There were maybe six of those records. And I went to some different producers to help kind of elevate this. And, uh, Tubby ended up signing the record. And here I was. My album was exactly how I wanted it to be. No compromising. I felt very in control.

And then it came time to promote and market it. And that's when this [screeching sound] noise happened.

[laughter]

Helga Davis: That was very good.

Solange Knowles: Yes. The journey kind of took a screech. Um, I remember the first sign of the alarm going off was, it was time to shoot the album cover. And I had conceived this idea to take all of these '60s pop art references and kind of Solangefy them. So I wanted the album covers to be a huge Campbell soup, um, you know, modeled off of the very iconic Warhol.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And I wanted it to say, "Can I sing soup? " And, um, I had all of these, like--

Helga Davis: You had it in your mind-

Solange Knowles: All in my mind.

Helga Davis: -exactly what you wanted.

Solange Knowles: And I, you know, mood-boarded it all out. I sent it to the label. They were like, okay, cool. Um, and then the day before the shoot, they said, "Oh, we can't get any of this licensed." So we-we booked another location and another photographer and another concept for the cover the day before. And I'd like to think that they probably have known at that point a couple weeks that they couldn't get clearance on a famous Andy Warhol piece. Um, but I was in a crunch and in that situation, I was given 24 hours to basically be told what the shoot was gonna be.

Um, and so I went the next day with my badass mom and in a really bratty act of rebellion, which I now actually regret, um, they booked this mid-century super glossy, you know, house to shoot the cover shoot in, which had absolutely no connection to the music that I was making.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so I actually like went out in front of the house in the front yard and just like poured trash everywhere. It was absolutely ridiculous. And my mom helped me actually. Um, and I didn't use any of the house. I just like did the shoot in the front yard. I was totally random and I wish I would've thought it through, but I was just so upset

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: -that I could not step foot in this house. And, um, we worked with what we had, I think we went out and got a vinyl player. My mom spray-painted some angel wings. It was absolutely random as hell.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: But it was kind of the state of chaos.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: That--

Helga Davis: And it was also, you still taking-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -ownership of your work-

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: -and of your vision.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely. Um, and in that- in that reflection of time, it was very true. That is how things felt in that moment. Um, and so that was kind of the first sign that, "Hey, wait, I am back on a major label. I am back using their funds to fund my art." And oh yeah, this is why I said that I wasn't [laughs] gonna do this in the-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: -first place.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Um, and-and there were major highs during that time. I think the highs were musically, I was so proud of my work. I was so proud to, um, be a young Black woman in that space and having the space and freedom to experiment in that way. I was so proud that, you know, I was such a like, geeky fan girl of-of all of this downbeat electronic music. And the fact that Boards of Canada and Thievery Corp were giving license for me to collaborate with them, that meant a lot to me, especially during that time.

Like that was- that was not going down that kind of genre mixing in that way, um, especially now with young Black women. And so I-I felt really great about the music. I felt really bummed about the way that the record was being marketed. I remember, um, having the big label meeting where you go in and you pitch all of your ideas and s saying, "I'm like trying to be like a young Black New York." And everyone kind of being like--

Helga Davis: Who?

Solange Knowles: [screeching sound] again. [laughter] Um, and so it came time to shoot my first video.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And, uh, my best friend still to this day, Melina Matsoukas, uh, was the co-director. And, you know, she came from the NYU film program. She was very grassroots, very ready to go there. She's actually the daughter of a Cuban Communist, um, and a professor, um, at NYU. And so, like, we were ready, you know, to go there. And we used references of-of Che and Malcolm X and Asada and all of these social, um, landmarks are happening in this video where--

Helga Davis: And important for you.

Solange Knowles: Yeah, super important to me to have that connectivity socially and as an activist through my art. Even then, that was super important to me. Um, but I did it in a very pop art way. It was still very colorful. It was still very performative. And I essentially went through the times from the '60s to the future in this video while basically, um, revisiting these, um, iconic landmarks that were super important to me. And then came the conversation of we have to put Beats headphones in the video somewhere.

And I'm like, "But I'm in the '70s."

Helga Davis: [screeching sound]

Solange Knowles: Yeah. I'm like, "Wait, I'm-I'm in the '80s, uh, at the Olympics where the track runner is holding up the fists. Where-where are the headphones gonna fit into this landscape?" Um, so there were just a lot of challenges that happened during that time from-

Helga Davis: And did you have to change your video?

Solange Knowles: I did not change my video. I did work to incorporate them. Um--

Helga Davis: And that felt like what for you?

Solange Knowles: It-it felt- it felt extremely hard. I think, um, for me, it was- it was essentially not having ownership of my body and my voice and my work, um, without the license to actually carry on my artistic vision without that interruptions. And I wasn't being compensated for it either. So that didn't help the situation.

Helga Davis: And you-you were asked to do this simply because you were on this label. They were promoting this product, and you in effect were a product of the label also.

Solange Knowles: Yes. So this was something that I think was just kind of like fair game for Interscope artists at the time.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so there were just a lot of issues at that time that made me realize that, okay, I understand the major label game now. And it's-it's hard to identify this as like an evil business because it is a music business and it is their job to generate income off of art. And it does operate as sort of a banking system. These are people who are investing into your art. They're fronting the money, and therefore they feel incentivized to have, you know, uh, an opinion and a-- not only of an opinion, some level of control on how you set forth that work.

And I understand it now. I think at the time I was too young and extremely passionate to look outside of my work as art and in that business forum. And so in some ways, you know, I really respect what I stood by and-and how I stood strong in that. And in some ways, I look back like, "Wow, I was really naive. I didn't understand all of the inner workings of the system."

Helga Davis: But you think you-- if you could have understood, you would've made it a different-

Solange Knowles: Oh, no. [laughter] But-but I would've had more accountability. And that's something-

Helga Davis: To who? To you--

Solange Knowles: To myself, honestly, I would've had accountability from the-the standpoint of understanding that you are entering a business, um, transaction. And do you fully understand that before you have then decided to do it?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Versus doing it and then yelling-

Helga Davis: Realizing. Right.

Solange Knowles: - and screaming and kicking the whole time like, "Ah, what's happening?" You know, after that album, I took a long hiatus. Um--

Helga Davis: How long?

Solange Knowles: Four years.

Helga Davis: Mm, that's long.

Solange Knowles: That's long. Yeah, it was really hard for me. Um, I-I worked the album probably for two to three years, which was also a really long time. And I decided that I needed to be home. I needed-- my son was starting kindergarten, I needed to ground myself. He had been the tour baby that I had been, you know, as a baby. So I really wanted to kind of domesticate and get home and get organized. And then once I kind of got him into school, I said, "You know what? Let me rethink how I'm doing this." I know that I love writing music.

I know that I love visualizing that that's a strength that I feel really confident in. Um, how can I do this myself?

Helga Davis: Mm.

Solange Knowles: And--

Helga Davis: And that's such a big thing because even-even now, I feel like a lot of the mess that we're in, and I mean all of us are in, is in part evidence of our desire for someone else to take care of things. Right?

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: Like it's-it's so old and so primal.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: So, you know, you are gonna stay in the cave and you want that person to go out and take his club and smash that animal in the head so everybody can eat. And it doesn't occur to you that your hands work.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: That your body works.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: That you can also go out and pick up and, and have agency-

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: -over your body, your time,-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -your energy, your everything.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: And okay, I don't wanna interrupt you, but it's-

Solange Knowles: No, please keep talking. [laughs]

Helga Davis: -it's like this is- this is the thing.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: You know?

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: So here you are, you take all of that back in your hands.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: And then?

Solange Knowles: And it was hard.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: And-and speaking to what you just said, um, the really interesting time, a thing about that time specifically is that when I made that decision to take agency over everything, it was like, "Well, how am I gonna pay for it?" And, um, I had to think of a way outside of my publishing deal to support myself and generate income.

Helga Davis: And your son.

Solange Knowles: And my son-

Helga Davis: And where was your husband?

Solange Knowles: We were not married at the time.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: I was a single mother.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Um, and-

Helga Davis: You moved away from--

Solange Knowles: We lived in between Houston and Los Angeles.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: Um, but he was started kindergarten. So at that time we actually grounded ourselves in L.A.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: Um, and I had no family there. I had two friends that was really about me having access during that time for my publishing deal to other producers so that I could frequently be working on music to shop and that whole thing.

Helga Davis: In L.A. huh?

Solange Knowles: In L.A. yeah. That's like- that's like songwriter there in Nashville.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: And so I had always, since I was a young girl, uh, been a stereo hog. Any party, any dinner party, I was always the one playlisting and, you know, taking over. And actually at-at a certain point, people started asking me to do that, making playlists for their parties or their weddings or whatever. And so, uh, for Christmas, actually, my family bought me some turntables and I totally just did it for the pure joy. I had a lot of DJ friends who are legends, who I'm very lucky and privileged to call friends.

And I had just fell in love with it, but never ever did I think that it would turn into kind of a second career-

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: -early for me.

Helga Davis: But it's that thing, right,-

Solange Knowles: It's that thing.

Helga Davis: -that you said-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: It's-it's what you loved.

Solange Knowles: Yeah. It is what I loved. So I started throwing these parties called A party in Houston, and, uh, someone had come to the party, I did them weekly at the time, and someone had come and the devastating, um, earthquakes happened in Haiti and they were organizing a fundraiser, and they asked if I would DJ and I was like, "Oh, hell no." Like, this is just for fun.

Helga Davis: When the universe creates a space for you Solange-- Uh-uh.

Solange Knowles: I know but I was terrified.

Helga Davis: Uh, of course.

Solange Knowles: And you know he was like, "But this is for something that is-

Helga Davis: Bigger than you.

Solange Knowles: -bigger than you. And, you know, if-if there's any time for you to just get in there and purely do it for joy then this is the time." And I said, "Yes." And then I was sweating for 48 hours. [laughter] Um, but I did it. And literally the next day, um, my agent had calls from all kinds of people like, "Well, will she DJ this and will she DJ that?" And I was just floored that, you know, this was something that I love that I could also, um, bring joy to people and-and also brand myself from the standpoint of my influences and sharing that.

And also maybe pay for some studio equipment so that I could have my own studio in my house, and work on these ideas that I had. So the universe really, really, really blessed me in that moment with that gift. And for about a year I DJed while just saving my coinage.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Solange Knowles: And I bought myself a Pro Tools rig. And I had a spare room in my house and I built a little DIY studio. And I started working on, uh, my third record True. And that was such a journey for me because that was the first time that I was able to do things really on my time. Um, I primarily wrote that album and worked on that album from the hours of 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM because that was when my-

Helga Davis: So got out of school.

Solange Knowles: -son got out of school.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: I was able to do it at home. I teamed up with a young producer by the name of Dev Hynes and the two of us just were in this space experimenting and creating this music that was so spirited and felt so good and true and pure to us. And when it came down for me to release it, I thought, "Am I gonna do this again and go through and--

Helga Davis: But now you're not- you're not on a record label.

Solange Knowles: No.

Helga Davis: So--

Solange Knowles: Cause I was deciding if I was gonna go through that again.

Helga Davis: So you mean like to-to approach a label to shop your record?

Solange Knowles: To approach a label again, to shop my record.

Helga Davis: In the big house.

Solange Knowles: In the big house. Or if I was going keep true to the spirit and the essence of independence of funding this album because I had already done the hardest part. That's the hard part, making it creating it. And, um, I had some friends who had a small label called Terrible Records. All things. [laughter] And they said, "We're in love with this album." And they said, "We can make this really easy and treat this as a distribution deal. You'd have agency and ownership over everything." And that's what I did.

And, um, it was wonderful. It was so thrilling, so exciting. And I feel like the-the truest turning point in my career that led up to where I am now. Um, I had no, you know promotion, no marketing. I shot the video with my best friend Melina again in South Africa. Um, I was heavily influenced by the Sapeur culture and the Le Sape culture that was happening in Bamako. Um, my mother was always there, as she always is.

Helga Davis: Just great.

Solange Knowles: Gave me all of her frequent flyer miles to fly everyone out, um, to Cape Town. And it was truly a labor of love from everyone but I think that that video has so much power, um, as an introduction to the album and the record. And again, wanting to celebrate, um, the beauty of Blackness and Black culture, you know, um, on a global scale and celebrating the diaspora and connecting that, um, was super important to me.

Helga Davis: How do you think that got to be so important to you? Why was that so important to you? Why is it still so important to you?

Solange Knowles: I think that I grew up with really powerful, um, images and voices and connectivity through my mother. Um, it was very, very important for-for her for us to know where we came from. And, um, you know, it's-it's a classic saying knowing where you came from to know where you're going and to identify and ground ourselves as descendants of African people that has always been at the forefront of how my mother raised us. And I think it was also really important for her that, you know, in Houston, the-the school systems as most in big cities can be really complicated.

So it was important for her that if we were going to a predominantly white school from, you know, August until June or however long, that that summer we were in a shakeout. You know, from learning. [laughter] You know it was, that was super important to her, it was very real.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: And, um, you know, learning about, uh, Kumbaya and-and [unintelligible 00:36:02] and all of that. And-and I'm super, super happy that she made that, um, you know, a requirement for us. And-and so I think, yeah, through all of my projects, especially visually is always been super important for me to celebrate the beauty, um, and the reality of Blackness and Black culture.

Helga Davis: Isn't it interesting that again, it's a-- it's an everyday kind of lesson that you're saying it doesn't matter what the things look like around you.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: You still have in a place of stillness-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -an opportunity to look around and to make choices.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: And this is the thing that it doesn't matter what it is you're doing that it's true.

Solange Knowles: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: So that project in itself was so freeing and so incredible. And I remember putting out the video and the album with no notice. I didn't have like a big iTunes slot or anything that I needed to give all this lead time. So it was just like, "Here it is, I got a new album out."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: "And here's the accompanying video." And from there, you know, a world of opportunities opened up for me that just felt so good because I, for the first time in my career, did not have anyone holding me back from carrying through my vision.

Helga Davis: And that you didn't hold yourself back.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: Because that's the other side of it too, right?

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: Then sometimes we get opportunities to do things-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -and we get sick-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -or we-

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: -just all of a sudden, we're not there for ourselves.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: And you didn't hold yourself back from really experiencing, uh, the joy-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -of what it was that you had created. Okay. So you do this and now you have all this opportunity and then what happened?

Solange Knowles: And then I took them all. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Yes. Yes. Yes, you did.

Solange Knowles: I did. And-and, um, it was incredible. And I was really feeling as you know, as triumphant as-as I could possibly feel as an artist. And then what happened after that was, um, actually really a huge turning point. Um, this label, and in the context that the album was released in being that it was an indie label who primarily released independent records, um, I saw a significant change in my audience.

Helga Davis: So changing your audience, what does that mean?

Solange Knowles: So my shows were predominantly white fan base, um, which my other two albums I had a pretty mixed fan base always but it definitely, I think there was a little bit of a lack of promotion. Well, that-- I didn't have any promotion.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: To be honest, but it was not reaching certain places and audiences.

Helga Davis: Which was important to you?

Solange Knowles: Which was very important to me. Um, and so that was all fine but the turning point happened, um, when essentially I was on Twitter professing my love for the artist Brandy who I'm a massive fan of. And there were a lot of white Indie music critics who criticized actually me, uh, professing this undying love from Brandy, who is an R'n'B artist. And I think they thought that there was a little bit of irony to it, which I was not expressing at all. And I essentially challenged, um, writers that if they were writing about R'n'B music, that they needed to know who Brandy was, and that was not warmly received from everyone.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so the New York Times invited me to do a podcast on cultural tourism. Um, there was a simultaneously also a lot of conversation about a certain rap, uh, album by an artist Chief Keef that was being really glorified that a lot of, uh, Black hip hop music critics were not fond of because they felt like it was glorifying, um, a certain type of hip hop without glorifying the other realm of hip hop that was very conscious and intelligent and hopeful and optimistic and uplifting. And that was kind of something that had kept reoccurring-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: -the way that these super violent hip hop records were being written about. And so I kind of got wrapped in there with my comments about R'n'B.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so New York Times was doing a podcast and they, uh, invited me to be a part of it. It was on cultural tourism specifically about this Chief Keef review. And I declined. I didn't really see, um, any incentive for me to be involved in that conversation in that way. Um, I didn't really feel the need to have a debate about something that I culturally was a part of, and I didn't feel the need to defend that. So they brought up my comments on this podcast and, uh, the writer who was a, uh, white male actually said, "You know, I went to Solange's concert and I noted who her audience was.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And if I were her, I'd be careful of making these statements because I'd be careful not to bite the hand that feeds me."

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: We can-- I think we can have a pause.

Solange Knowles: Okay. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Just a slight pause right there.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: But even the-- not just the arrogance of the- of the comment-

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: -but also the assumption.

Solange Knowles: Oh yeah. The assumption was very real. And then it was actually named, um, does Solange know who's buying her records? So it became a totally different conversation than what I was first approached to be a part of. And then it became a conversation-conversation again, yet again about ownership.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: And here I was feeling so free, feeling so independent, feeling like I had ownership finally over my art,-

Helga Davis: But you did.

Solange Knowles: -my voice. I did, but I was being challenged on that yet again. Um, by essentially being told that this audience had ownership over me. And that was kind of the turning point and the transition for me writing the album that is now A Seat at the Table. I begin to think a lot about that conversation and replaying it. And it haunted me and it haunted my mother. It haunted my mother to hear someone telling her daughter, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And also, you know, the racial subtleties are not so subtle.

Helga Davis: Not so subtle for sure. Not so subtle.

Solange Knowles: Um, of-of, you know, what that encompasses when you say that to a Black woman, and then you, uh, connect it by saying, "Do you know who's buying your records?" So I was essentially being told to shut up and to silence me. And we love your music and we love your work. And we--" He actually said-

Helga Davis: And we want it like this.

Solange Knowles: And we want it like this.

Helga Davis: And we want you to be quiet.

Solange Knowles: Yeah. And he actually said, you know, and I went to the show and I felt very warm and fuzzy after I left, but, you know, it was that but. So, um, I begin to write the early stages of the album that is out now, Seat at the Table, um, primarily based off of that conversation and based off of a lot of conversations that had started to happen during that era of me releasing that album. And, um, the feeling of, uh, just being silenced through my voice. And-and there's one interesting thing that I-- and we talked about this when we were at MASS MoCADA.

That I started to, uh, see where, you know, the Nina Simones of our times, the Marvin Gayes of our times, the specifically Black artists who made work about Blackness and what it felt like to feel this Black body and occupy space in a country that still does not value our Black bodies, um, at the level and place that they shouldn't be. That people are generally, they can be comfortable with you telling those stories through your art. And we see this even with Black visual artists, but really uncomfortable with you talking about it outside of that context.

And that's when the conversation starts to get a little muddy. And so I started to have these conversations very openly, um, in interviews through social media, through different forums. And I started to see that the more that I, uh, took away the haze of here I am, you know, with Hadley Street, um, having these social, uh, landmarks through Black civil rights and Black monumental moments through my work, but I'm not actually talking about it.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Here I am through True, I'm doing my video in South Africa, but I'm not actually talking about what that means.

Helga Davis: So you feel like it's not-- that wasn't even enough that you were doing that.

Solange Knowles: No.

Helga Davis: Because you weren't saying it, literally saying anything.

Solange Knowles: I wasn't spelling it out as explicitly as I had started to-

Helga Davis: Okay.

Solange Knowles: -through the course of these interviews. And then I started to see, oh, whoa, once I'm operating in this space, I'm actually like now becoming targeted, you know, and a totally different way that I didn't really have the tools-

Helga Davis: You [crosstalk] uh.

Solange Knowles: -yet at the time to manage with.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Um, and so that was a whole nother era of inspiring this album is like working out how to develop those tools through my art and through the conversation of my music. Um, to where now I actually feel much better and much more equipped to have those conversations. I actually had to go through the rage and the frustration and the-the morning and the protest and the meditation through the album to get to the other side, to be able to have those conversations. No matter where I'm being targeted, I can stand firm in that and strong and with my shoulders and my head high.

And-and so yeah, I-I wrote that record and I think, um, one of- one of the things that I feel really good about is in the past I was-- I'm-I'm a very collaborative person and I was much more open as a songwriter for-for collaborative experiences, um, in terms of making the music. And this time I really challenged myself that every word, every lyric, every melody had to come from me, even when I got so tired and stuck on the line for three days. And it would be so easy to ask [unintelligible 00:48:39], "What-what should I say here?

Just feed me this once." [laughter] Um, but I really stuck to that because this had to be my storytelling.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so here I am now a seat at the table is out. And I feel so much pride and joy in that the universe was able to say that these conversations are our conversations and they can be very successful. You know, this doesn't have to be some underground, here we are in the trenches. Like, no, this is everyone's story. And that has meant so much to me, being able to tell not only my story, but my mom and dad's story and my grandparents' story and Master P's story and just having that forum to be used as a vessel because truly it's not me. It's not about me on this record, although it is personalized.

Helga Davis: Which again, it's something bigger than you, right?

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: Like you're a vehicle for something else much-

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: -a larger conversation that needs to happen in the culture and that needs to happen in the society. And-and you get to be a witness to and a conduit for that-

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: -that conversation to happen. And it-it just-- It feels so big. And I love that-that those conversations are also included in your interludes on the record.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: So that you can really hear what people have to say. And, you know, I'm not a-- I don't like to read social media things mostly because I think that-that it kind of makes you a slave in a way.

Solange Knowles: True. It's very true.

Helga Davis: I had a show here for a long time that was overnight music and I just used to do some stuff-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -right? So there would be Mozart and Felonious Monk and then Meredith Monk. And-

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: -it-it made sense to me, but there were people who hated what I was doing. And the person who was my boss here at the time, her name is Limor Tomer, she said to me, "Helga, look, not everybody's gonna like what you do, now go back and do it." [laughs]

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Which and I went to her. Again, it's that thing I was talking about in the beginning. I went to her because I wanted her to fix it. I wanted her to tell me that I was doing the right thing. I wanted her to say, "I love you-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -and you are so great." And to pat me on the head.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And she basically said, "Yeah, well, okay. There-there's gonna be this too. And it doesn't mean that all of a sudden you-you dry up and fade away

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Go do your work--

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -and Yep. You should come back here and check in with me and make sure you're still feeling honest about what it is that you're doing." Which is another one of those interludes on your record. Right?

Solange Knowles: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And if that is true, at the end of the day, then the conversation that happens is the conversation that happens. It-it doesn't actually have anything to do with you.

Solange Knowles: Right.

Helga Davis: Go do your work.

Solange Knowles: Right.

Helga Davis: Um, and so that's- that's a very-very big thing. And it's so nice to hear those stories, um, even-even on-on, um, what you call it on Frank Ocean's record.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: I like to hear his mom-

Solange Knowles: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Helga Davis: -talking to him about smoking pot and all of that. Uh, it's-- that's-that's real--

Solange Knowles: Very.

Helga Davis: -and it's-it's great. Again, for people to know that that's where you come from and that that's where we all come from. And, uh, you know, I have a friend who-who is doing some really incredible work in the prison system, but the thing that he always reminds me is that hurt people hurt people.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: Right?

Solange Knowles: Yep.

Helga Davis: And so, in that place, and even in the thing that I did at MASS MoCA, in that place where you've done something you've participated in a system that isn't quite equal.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: You have a lot to fear.

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: And so here I am also in that system with you saying, "Okay, are we gonna talk about this?"

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: One so that we can stop doing it--

Solange Knowles: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Helga Davis: -first. And-and also so that I can be a better citizen,-

Solange Knowles: Mm.

Helga Davis: -which-which is-is about being too more of a human.

Solange Knowles: Yep, absolutely. Yeah. I-I literally last night was just talking about, you know, how I feel now freer and allowing people to humanize me as a human, as a person, and as a flawed individual. I think, you know, um, when I wrote this album, it was like such an insular experience in terms of how I isolated myself to write most of it. I-I went to New Iberia where my grandparents are from, which is a small town in rural Louisiana.

Helga Davis: Wow.

Solange Knowles: So I'm, you know, creating these stories and these sonics and these ideas in this space. And I really didn't give much, um, attention to like how I would share this in a performative way. Um, and even with Saturday Night Live, like I was so-so incredibly nervous-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Solange Knowles: -trembling, literally trembling-

Helga Davis: I believe you.

Solange Knowles: -because these are such intensely, uh, personalized stories and so emotionally driven. But I use the juxtaposition of singing them in this super light-controlled falsetto way. But as you know, as a vocalist, when you are outraged with emotion-

Helga Davis: [crosstalk] Oh yes, sorry.

Solange Knowles: -it's really hard to, and nervous-

Helga Davis: To hold that back. Yeah. Yeah.

Solange Knowles: -to hold that air and hold that back. And so I was so challenged, but I feel today so much freer in that-that vulnerability is a part of me and making that a part of my artistry. And I think that until you're able to step into that place and be flawed and experiment and get dirty and get nasty and, you know, strive for perfection but fail or whatever the nuances that you have to go through in terms of elevating to that next phase of your artistry, I feel more willing to do it today than any other time.

And I think a part of that is growing up and a part of it is knowing that I made this record, and at the beginning of it, I was so scared, so-so scared. Like, "Is he right? Is my audience gonna drop off the face of this earth because I'm being too honest? What, um, you know, implications is this gonna have on my family? Are we gonna be targeted? We roll very low-key. And-and what is this gonna mean for my son? You know, going to school and-and having his granddad on a song, talking about being spit on, and the Ku Klux Klan, you know, targeting him on his first day of school."

All of those things that were background noise and then working through that despite the fear. I think that this whole chapter is about getting through to the other side despite the fear. And I just feel so incredibly blessed and humble and grateful. I have so much gratitude that I was able to just do this-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: -and do it my way and have that freedom. And so, um, yesterday someone was asking me, like telling me like, "Oh, you have like whatever number of media critic or whatever." And I was like, "That's so awesome." And it's so glowing and feel-- I'm so grateful. That like the reviews are when I see, you know, the girl who tells me that she listens to this every morning as a meditation so that when she goes into the workplace and she has a lot to be mad about she can channel it through that song and not act a fool.

Like, that's my glowing review, you know? And-and that has just been invaluable. It really has been.

Helga Davis: We talk a lot about-about the universe. I want you to tell the story, um, of when we were at MASS MoCA. So we were there.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: And it was your son's 12th birthday.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: And you weren't at home--

Solange Knowles: No.

Helga Davis: -for that.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: Talk about- talk about what happened.

Solange Knowles: Yes. So, um, as I mentioned before, uh, Jules is- Jules is my son's name. Um, his father and I, we co-parent. And so now we switch off for birthdays. And we didn't always do that. We would usually, you know, spend them together, or quite frankly, with me. [laughs]

Helga Davis: There we go. Let's just say that.

Solange Knowles: So this was a huge-huge step. Um, and I was not there, but my husband was, and my husband and I have been together for eight years. We've only been married for two, but he has been a huge, you know, father figure for my son.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Um, he was three when we first got together. And so here I am there on that day at MASS MoCA, and this Nick Cave, incredibly glorious and fallacious.

Helga Davis: We were all crying and singing [crosstalk]

Solange Knowles: Crying and having [crosstalk]. But I'm also like, carrying the weight of me not being there on this special day and me worrying like, how is this going with my son's father and my husband?

Helga Davis: Did they- did they not always get along?

Solange Knowles: They've always been very respectful, but they have not just been like hanging out.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: And I got a video of the three of them, um, you know, playing basketball, uh, going to dinner, they went to a Brazilian restaurant and I saw pictures of the three of them. And it was just honestly the best like gift that I could have ever gotten on-- Cause as- as- as mothers know, the birthday is also your birthday too. And it was just a glorious moment in time. And honestly, when I think about this album and the relationships that it's affected in a positive way.

The last song on the album Scales is greatly inspired by my son's father and some of the systematic challenges that he's had to navigate through as a Black man growing up in America. And I have been able to have a certain level-- a certain type of forgiveness, not level. A certain kind of forgiveness that I was not able to achieve before making this album. And it's brought us closer together. It's brought me and my father closer together. It's been very healing. And so in that moment, the universe did more than have my back. You know, it really, really gave us a gift that day.

And it went from me that morning, you remember I was like almost breaking out in the hives.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: I was so nervous about that day. And then seeing that image of the three of them together celebrating such a special, beautiful moment. It was-- it just brought me over the moon.

Helga Davis: And also just that you had to let go, right?

Solange Knowles: I had to let go.

Helga Davis: Like, you could not micromanage that--

Solange Knowles: I know.

Helga Davis: -from- from where you were. And you even said to me, "You know, if I had been there--" you-

Solange Knowles: It wouldn't have happened.

Helga Davis: -would've been planning,-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -you would've been planning, you would've been doing this and-

Solange Knowles: Sure.

Helga Davis: -moving in the car and the kids-

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -and with the kids.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: [talks gibberish] And instead-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -you had to let go of all of that.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And also you were in a place where you really wanted to be present.

Solange Knowles: Yes, I did.

Helga Davis: You-

Solange Knowles: I did.

Helga Davis: -you really wanted to be there.

Solange Knowles: I wanted to be there and yeah. It was about letting go. And- and I did. I did say to you, I was like, "I know if I was there this moment wouldn't have happened." Or maybe it wouldn't have happened-- it would've happened, but it wouldn't have happened in this way. And so yeah. It's- it's just a great life lesson when the universe constantly does the work it's supposed to do.

Helga Davis: One of the reasons that I-I feel like I got attached to you and I just am gonna use that word.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: So-

Solange Knowles: Likewise.

Helga Davis: -so quickly is from when we met.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And so I know whatever room we were in and-

Solange Knowles: We were on the steps.

Helga Davis: -we got together.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I looked at you and I put my hand out and you put your hand out.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And the thing that I appreciated more than anything was that I didn't feel that you were asking me to be less than I was to be in your presence.

Solange Knowles: Mm.

Helga Davis: And I think this is such a fundamental human thing, right?

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: Um, and that I actually got to just be myself, right?

Solange Knowles: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: And cause I love to look at the people, right? I do. I wanna look, I wanna see who's in front of me.

Solange Knowles: [laughs] Yeah, absolutely.

Helga Davis: And it's, it's not a challenge. And it's not some alpha bitch thing.

Solange Knowles: No.

Helga Davis: It's I just, "This is where I am in my life.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And in the world, and I wanna look at you and I'm gonna shake your hand." And it's-it's-- I'm-- that's what I wanna do.

Solange Knowles: Well, I was taking notes and studying this glorious [laughter] woman in front of me, this regal, glorious phenomenon.

Helga Davis: And I was like, "Yes. That's my sister right there."

Solange Knowles: So we were-- we were fangirling left and right back and forth.

Helga Davis: Fangirling. Oh, I love that.

Solange Knowles: Yes. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Okay. All right.

Solange Knowles: And I have been fangirling you ever since.

Helga Davis: Keep up on these terms. [laughs]

Solange Knowles: I Would. Not to mention that you-- I was like, "Okay, skin secrets."

Helga Davis: [unintelligible 01:04:10].

Solange Knowles: Not to go there.

Helga Davis: We go everywhere.

Solange Knowles: I hear your voice in my head all day, every day because you are so right. And that I touch my face-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: -all day. Yeah. So thank you for that.

Helga Davis: And we never know.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Like, you know, they're just-- they are little unconscious things.

Solange Knowles: Well, like you said you like to see people.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: And study them and like you peeped.

Helga Davis: And I- and I know that I do it.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Right? And-and so-

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: -I get that. Last thing.

Solange Knowles: Okay.

Helga Davis: Don't touch my hair.

Solange Knowles: Okay. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Look, here's my note. Don't touch my hair. And the African-American struggle--

Solange Knowles: Oh my God.

Helga Davis: -for agency over the Black body, my nieces, wigs, and weaves.

Solange Knowles: Ooh, come on. Think peace.

Helga Davis: [laughs] Okay. I'm sorry. And we'd-

Solange Knowles: Wigs and weave.

Helga Davis: You've-you've-- we've talked about agency over the Black body.

Solange Knowles: Yes, we have.

Helga Davis: And-and here's the-- my nieces are so sick of me talking about them and their weaves and their hair.

Solange Knowles: Hmm.

Helga Davis: And here's my thing with them.

Solange Knowles: Okay.

Helga Davis: I don't care really that they're-- that they wear wigs and weaves.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: What I care about is that they would never cut their hair.

Solange Knowles: Mm.

Helga Davis: They would never not wear a wig and a weave.

Solange Knowles: Ah, I see. I see.

Helga Davis: And as an African-American woman-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -whose grandmother-- my grandmother looks completely different.

Solange Knowles: Okay.

Helga Davis: Than me as you can-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -imagine.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: As we do.

Helga Davis: And I remember, you know, being 12 and already taller than the tallest boy in my class, uh, running track so without the classic girl body. Right?

Solange Knowles: Mm.

Helga Davis: And my grandmother said to me, "Helga, you're not a bad-looking child, but it's a pity you come so Black."

Solange Knowles: Oh, wow.

Helga Davis: Right? So there's that. All of that, to say or to ask-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -and-and to have a little bit of conversation just around-around identity.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Around freedom of choice. Because what-what my nieces say to me is that this is-- and my brothers say this is not a big deal, and they are expressing themselves and-and be quiet.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And it's-- I again, I don't have any problem with expression.

Solange Knowles: Right.

Helga Davis: But they don't- they don't know who they are without it.

Solange Knowles: I understand that.

Helga Davis: And their daughters don't know who they are now without it.

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And it bothers me-

Solange Knowles: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -so much. And my brothers just say, "Well, they have you."

Solange Knowles: Mm. [laughs]

Helga Davis: Mm. That's what I say.

Solange Knowles: Well, I grew up in a hair salon.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Solange Knowles: Literally.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Ah.

Solange Knowles: So I saw, uh, how much hair for a Black woman really carried out our identity and the way that we communicated who we were. Not only that I saw all kinds of women relating to the idea of wanting to, uh, present the beautifications of ourselves.

Helga Davis: Uh-huh.

Solange Knowles: No matter who they were, if they were lawyers, judges, strippers.

Helga Davis: Yep.

Solange Knowles: Uh, church ladies.

Helga Davis: Everybody.

Solange Knowles: Everybody was in there.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And so I-I-- if I understood the weight and the- the loftiness of what Black hair meant to women specifically. Um, and I had a complica-complicated relationship with my hair. And that when I was 13, when I went through that phase.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: I cut all of my relaxer off. I started to wear these really long red braids and what that communicated to people as a young girl. Um, and then once I had my son, I was in the-the relationship with my son's father, who was a star football player. And I began to straighten my hair and I dyed it back Black. And it was like the more classic version of how I saw myself. Um, and then once we split up, I cut it all off. [laughter] All over again-

Helga Davis: Uh-huh.

Solange Knowles: -started over.

Helga Davis: Start again.

Solange Knowles: And that was during the era of social media. And so this haircut was like kind of widely-

Helga Davis: Yeah. I remember.

Solange Knowles: -shared.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: And Oprah actually had become on the show and talk about what that meant to me. And so it became very statement-making. Um, and I actually was quite annoyed, um, in some instances that that meant to people in some weird way that I was smarter or more intellectual or in some way--

Helga Davis: That your natural hair made you smarter and more intellectual?

Solange Knowles: Yeah. I did feel that sense from people. So yeah, the-the relationship is-- with hair has been very deep. And when I, uh, [unintelligible 01:09:42], a musician and artist who's featured on the song just started playing this little roads sound. And for whatever reason I just hummed, "Don't touch my hair." And then it transitioned into a match.

Helga Davis: Deeper conversation.

Solange Knowles: -bigger and deeper conversation about us getting to have the opportunity to celebrate all of the glory and the proud-- pride and the proudness that we should be able to, without criticism, without, um, without your voice chiming in on this and without, you know, us just being able to have this moment to be us and celebrate the beauty of us. So, you know, it has a much deeper meaning past the surface. And-and, you know, just the other night someone still stuck their hands and-

Helga Davis: No.

Solange Knowles: -in my head. Yeah. [laughs]

Helga Davis: No. No.

Solange Knowles: So that's-that's--

Helga Davis: Where was this?

Solange Knowles: But again-- look at my-my assistant is like, "Are you gonna say anything?" [laughs]

Helga Davis: Okay, sorry. You don't need to say.

Solange Knowles: I'm not gonna say. [laughs]

Helga Davis: But-but-

Solange Knowles: But-

Helga Davis: -really.

Solange Knowles: -you know, yeah, it was- it was actually after I had performed the-the song.

Helga Davis: The song. Right. Of course.

Solange Knowles: But again, I feel more equipped to like I said, I have a new set of tools now.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: Where I feel like through, uh, the working out these, um, internal issues through this album, I gained a new little tool set that I'm able to use. And I feel like I've said all that I can say.

Helga Davis: Right.

Solange Knowles: And so now I can stand in that truth and not have to carry the emotional baggage on the same level. Of course, it's gonna still-

Helga Davis: Of course.

Solange Knowles: -hurt and burn and sadden, and I'm human.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Solange Knowles: But I feel much more equipped through the working out some of these things through the record that I can stand-stand firm in my stance and my voice.

Helga Davis: So I'm gonna let you go because you've been here a long time.

Solange Knowles: Oh.

Helga Davis: I know that we had this conversation, but know that, uh, so in whatever way, and for whatever reason, we have been a part of one another's journey, and-

Solange Knowles: I know.

Helga Davis: -that I really, really, really adore you and appreciate-

Solange Knowles: Oh my God.

Helga Davis: -um, appreciate all of this time-

Solange Knowles: Thank you.

Helga Davis: -to be together.

Solange Knowles: Thank you. Thank you.

Helga Davis: And I know you have to run.

Solange Knowles: I know. [laughs]

Helga Davis: I know you have to run. I know, I know, I know, I know. I know you have to run.

Solange Knowles: But thank you so, so much.

Helga Davis: But thank you so, so, so, so much.

Solange Knowles: And I look forward to-to learning more from you because you are a goddess.

Helga Davis: And well, I thank you. And, um, I will from time to time, do this with you.

Solange Knowles: Yes.

Helga Davis: And just know that I'm thinking about you.

Solange Knowles: Okay.

Helga Davis: And that's the most important thing I'm not interested in, "Oh, but, she didn't text me back." [laughter] Uh, like that's-- I have absolutely no-- like none of that.

Solange Knowles: Yeah.

Helga Davis: I just want you to know I'm thinking about you.

Solange Knowles: Thank you.

Helga Davis: And-and, uh, yeah.

Solange Knowles: Thank you so much.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Solange Knowles: Thank you.

Helga Davis: Hug Helga and-and run. I didn't lie to you. I told you that it would be great for Solange to come in and talk to us, and it really was great that she was able to be here and to share with us all of that history, all of the things that we probably did not know about her as a person and as an artist. In the same way that we've heard from her, I would love to hear from you. You can always reach me at helgawqxr.org, share your stories of creativity, and how you used your creativity in your life.

[music]

Voiceover: This episode of Helga was produced by Julia Alsop and executive producer Alex Ambrose, with help from Curtis MacDonald, and original music by Alex Overington. Special thanks to Cindy Kim, Lorraine Mattox, Michael [unintelligible 01:14:08], Jacqueline Cincotta, and John Chao.

 

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