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Tanzina Vega: This is the takeaway. I'm Tanzina Vega and it's so great to be back with you in the host chair today, talking all things politics. We begin with two dueling bills making their way through Congress that focus on the political future of Puerto Rico. The Island is a US Commonwealth whose colonial status has been in the spotlight following the economic, political and structural crises the Island has faced over the past few years, including Hurricane Maria in 2017 and the ouster of Governor Ricardo Rosselló in 2019. For decades, residents on the Island have voted for their political preference in non-binding referendums, but Puerto Ricans on the Island still remain in political limbo, not exactly a state, but also not an independent nation.

On Thursday representative Nydia Velázquez, along with representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Bob Menendez, officially announced the Puerto Rico Self-Determination Act of 2021.

Nydia Velázquez: This registration recognizes the inherent right of the people of Puerto Rico to determine their own political future.

Tanzina Vega: Earlier this month, a competing bill was introduced by representatives Darren Soto and Jennifer Gonzalez, Puerto Rico's non-voting member of Congress. Their alternative, the Puerto Rico Statehood Admission Act would set-up a framework to make the Island a state. On Friday morning, we called up.

Nydia Velázquez: Nydia Velázquez representing the seventh congressional district in New York City.

Tanzina Vega: She's the first Puerto Rican woman to serve in the US House of Representatives and since Puerto Rico's political advancement has been in the national conversation so much recently, I asked the Congresswoman how she expects to keep that momentum going.

Nydia Velázquez: I hope that we can all come together, Puerto Rico leaders and members of Congress, to really work in a path forward that will put an end to 123 years of colonialism where the people of Puerto Rico have been divided, where they do not have legal tools to deal with their own challenges. We saw that during the financial crisis, Puerto Rico's right to declare bankruptcy was taken away by the US Congress. Puerto Rico's opportunity to continue to promote economic development in Puerto Rico was taken away by Congress when they ended the IRS code 936 that promoted foreign investment, investment from the United States companies to Puerto Rico.

What it shows is that the many issues and the many challenges that Puerto Rican people are facing today are rooted in the colonial status condition.

Tanzina Vega: Congresswoman, your Puerto Rico Self-Determination Act of 2021, which you are co-sponsoring and officially announced this week. Can you define what you mean by self-determination?

Nydia Velázquez: Is to recognize the inherent rights of the people of Puerto Rico. To come together and decide what their best political path forward is for them to come and define in a status convention, the different formulas, the different options, and put that to the peoples to decide through a direct vote. What is it that they want to do? Many people are saying that statehood was voted by 52% in the last election. This is a serious issue and it requires the participation of the US Congress and the US government. That plebiscite was basically a political tool for the party in power to entice voters to come to the polls.

It wasn't binded, it will not require any action or certification by the US Congress, nor was it defined for the people of Puerto Rico. They didn't know what does it mean? What type of responsibility if Puerto Rico become a state. The statehood was not defining the plebiscite bill. There was no education campaign about the implications of becoming of US state and then you have a minority, almost 57% of the people of Puerto Rico who do not support statehood. They too have the right to be heard and to participate

Tanzina Vega: Congresswoman, you've mentioned the plebiscite. This is something that residents of Puerto Rico for decades have essentially voted on these non-binding referendums about the status of their own Island. Why not just offer the residents of Puerto Rico and referendum that does have teeth, that is binding, rather than creating an additional step here?

Nydia Velázquez: No, that is exactly what my legislation does. This is not any election. This is an important step forward to put an end to the colonial status of Puerto Rico. It requires a consultation with the different formulas that will be outside the territorial clause. We got to treat this with the seriousness that it requires. This will define the political future of the people of Puerto Rico. What my legislation dos, it empowered the Puerto Rican legislature to create a status convention and whose delegates will be elected by Puerto Rican voters. That body will develop a long-term solution and it will define each of the solution and it will have a transition plan for each of those solutions.

When people go out to vote, they will know what exactly they're voting for. This is not any regular election. This is the most important election in the political life and association with the United States for the last 123 years.

Tanzina Vega: Congresswoman, what do we know about whether or not there's congressional support for this self-determination bill that you are proposing? If there is, is it bipartisan?

Nydia Velázquez: Yes, we introduced legislation yesterday. We had close to 80 members co-sponsoring the bill, and there it is by [unintelligible 00:07:41] Senator Bob Menendez, Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Elizabeth Warren, Senator Booker, Senator Wicker, who is a Republican, and many more. Eight senators are supporting this bill and in the house close to 77, I think the last count is 77 members. That shows broad support. Not only that, it has this board of 10 chairman of 10 different committees, including committees that have to do some that has the responsibility on this bill and any other bill.

Jim McGovern from Massachusetts, who is the chairman of the rules committee. Richard Neal, who is the chairman of Ways and Means. I'm proud of the kind of support that we were able to get from members of Congress, from my colleagues. I'm very grateful for that.

Tanzina Vega: Congresswoman, you mentioned the colonial status of Puerto Rico which hurts the Island, essentially, especially at an economic and fiscal level. However, there is a body that you voted for that you said it was one of the toughest votes of your career, which was to support PROMESA, which was the fiscal oversight board that was appointed to manage and essentially restructure the debt on the Island. That board has since become the target of a lot of criticism, particularly as it's debt restructuring. Lots of questions are being raised about whether that restructuring is fair to Puerto Ricans on the Island, or whether it favors investors and people who are not residents of Puerto Rico. How do you respond to that?

Nydia Velázquez: We need to look at this in the context of the fact that Puerto Rico didn't have any legal framework to declare bankruptcy. If you look at the history of Argentina with hedge funds on vultures, they took Argentina to court for so many years, I think, 10 years and finally there was an agreement in federal court in New York. Puerto Rico didn't have any tool to deal with bankruptcy. In fact, they borrow money with the good faith of the Commonwealth and the constitution of the Puerto Rican government. That meant that that in any federal court the judge who have rule against Puerto Rico telling them, "You must pay. There's no remedy here. We have to abide by the rope by the law and if you don't have the money, then you will have to sell assets, public assets or seize any liquidity that Puerto Rico had at that moment."

Knowing all that, I knew that the only way forward was to create this body because the Republicans here will not support any other remedy coming from the US Congress.

You have the Puerto Rico government borrow money, it was private money so they will be in a position to have to pay what they borrowed. At that time I supported PROMESA with the understanding that PROMESA provided an orderly restructure of the public debt, plus also said that it will be the responsibility of the PROMESA board to use the power to promote economic development in Puerto Rico.

Tanzina Vega: Are you satisfied Congresswoman, we have one minute left, that that's what they've done so far?

Nydia Velázquez: No, they have not. Even though the latest plan has been much, much better. I believe that the intent of the law was not to create a collection agency for the hedge funds and vultures. In fact, what they have done is implement austerity measures that will never work if we take into account the history and experience of Europe.

Tanzina Vega: When it comes to the question of Puerto Rico's political status, there seem to be the folks, at least in my experience as a member of the diaspora here in New York, there seem to be those who want statehood, those want to keep with the status quo, and those who want independence. The independence call seems to be growing, even though it's still small. Is an independent Puerto Rico even possible when you look at the Island of Puerto Rico right now?

Nydia Velázquez: Look, we don't know. What I can say is this, that there is so much skepticism and cynicism to work the government. What happened in the summer of 2019 was quite revealing. A sitting governor was ousted without a bullet, without any type of fights. People took it to the streets because they were fed up with the corruption that was happening in Puerto Rico. What we have seen is a transformation. I think that the summer of 2019 marked a beginning of a political transformation in Puerto Rico that generated into a multi-party system for the first time in its history. Puerto Rico was dominated, the politics in the Island was always dominated by a two-party system.

Today we have five political parties who has representatives in the legislature. A lot of the young people really are more engaged, demanding accountability and transparency. It's just really sad that young people fight so hard to get educated. They graduate, and with one diploma in one hand and then a ticket to leave the Island. That shouldn't happen. I believe that kind of engagement by young people, by the youth, we don't know what consequences going forward will have. I also believe that it marked the transformation of the political system in Puerto Rico for the good, for the better.

Tanzina Vega: The Puerto Rico since has elected a new governor, Governor Pedro Pierluisi, who is a proponent of statehood. Have you had any conversations with Governor Pedro Pierluisi about self-determination versus statehood for the Island?

Nydia Velázquez: He knows very well what my position is. We had a meeting, it was a virtual meeting and we didn't have much time to discuss this, but he knows that I would like to get a conversation going so that we treat this issue with the seriousness that it required, because it's in the interest of the people of Puerto Rico. Let me just also mention to you that the governor of Puerto Rico was elected with only 37% of support. Two-third of the people of Puerto Rico voted against the current governor. That is why I always said that putting the plebiscite as part of the November election was a way to entice people to the polls and save themselves.

There was so much hostility and anger to what the party in power, and he represents the new progressive party. He's a member of the new progressive party. Ricardo Rosselló was the governor of Puerto Rico was a one ousted, and also come from the same party.

Tanzina Vega: Congresswoman, I have two questions for you are as we wind down that are not related to Puerto Rico, but are still critical in the conversation regarding politics. You have been, for decades, a leading voice on immigration reform. You've co-authored several pieces of legislation over the years on immigration reform. I'd love to get your take on what's happening right now at the Southern border, particularly with unaccompanied migrant children who are coming to the United States. I'm wondering if you've spoken to President Joe Biden about this and what your thoughts are and what needs to happen?

Nydia Velázquez: Look, what is happening in the border, basically it represents the failed policies of the previous administration. If you think that by punishing parents and children you going to end undocumented people trying to cross the border. It's not going to happen. I went to Central America with Speaker Pelosi. We saw firsthand the conditions, the violence, the corruption. I think that we have a responsibility to make investment in those countries so that people believe that there is hope if they stay home. Just by punishing and trying to give a lesson, it's not the way forward.

We are better than that. Now the administration is putting together not only immigration reform, but also an investment package that will help people be able to stay home by helping those governments to promote economic development, but it cannot be a blank check. We have to have oversight. We have to send a strong message to those leaders that we're going to be watching. That's where we are today. Let me also add that we pass the American Rescue Plan, a great plan that has been supported by almost 75% of the American people, Republicans and Democrats alike.

For those Republicans, all of them, who've already against it, they need to create a distraction and the distraction is going to the border. They are not willing to sit down and come to the table and look at how can we put an end to what is happening at the border. We need to assume responsibility for what is happening and the fact that we failed in seeking solutions to the immigration issue.

Tanzina Vega: Finally, Congresswoman Velázquez, you are a member of the New York delegation and of course, as we know here in New York and across the country, the Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, is involved in a scandal involving several sexual craftsman allegations. On March 12th you called for the governor to resign, saying that he had lost public confidence, but a recent poll of New York voters found that Cuomo still has support. What do you make of that? Do you stand by asking the governor to step down?

Nydia Velázquez: Publicly I did, and I believe that investigation is going with their AG. If he decided that he still have the confidence of the people and that he could remain in office, then the choice is to wait for the conclusion of that investigation. If the investigation shows wrongdoing, and the nursing home issue also is part of that investigation by the legislature, the governor needs to look to everything that is happening and ask himself, "Can I govern?" Given the pandemic, given the challenges that New York is facing. Given the fact that now is not the time to be spending most of your time defending yourself, but executing a plan to get us out of this pandemic and to deal with the issue of the state of the economy and the fiscal health of the state of New York.

Can he have the energy? Can he have everything that it takes to deal with those challenges? And that's the question that he needs to answer himself.

Tanzina Vega: We will be paying close attention. Congresswoman Velázquez, thank you so very much for taking the time to talk to us today.

Nydia Velázquez: Thank you for having me.

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Tanzina Vega: For decades, he residents of Puerto Rico, who are granted US citizenship at birth, have voted on the future of the Island's political status in non-binding referendums. The results have often split into two major camps, those wanting to keep the status quo and those wanting statehood, who have genuinely eked out a small majority. A much smaller percentage of Puerto Ricans say they want full independence. The conversation about admitting Puerto Rico to the union has gained more attention in recent years and even President Joe Biden signaled his support for statehood on the campaign trail. To talk about all this, we called up-

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: Christina Ponsa-Kraus, and I'm a law professor at Columbia Law School. Puerto Rico has been a US territory since 1898, when the United States annexed the Island after the Spanish American War. Puerto Rican's have been US citizens since 1917. This entire time, for the past 123 years, Puerto Rico has been US soil and federal laws have applied there at Congress's sole discretion. Congress has made a few exceptions, but it is Congress and Congress alone that decides what federal laws apply in Puerto Rico and which ones don't.

Puerto Ricans have no representation in Congress at all except for a non-voting resident commissioner, a person who serves in the House of Representatives. Puerto Ricans also can't vote for the president. Puerto Ricans have zero voting representation in the federal government, and yet they're subject to US sovereignty and federal laws. Puerto Rico ought to be a state, and it really should have been a state a long time ago.

Tanzina Vega: We should be clear that Puerto Ricans can't vote for president, those who are living on the Island, but Puerto Ricans who are here in the continental United States are able to vote for president.

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: That's correct.

Tanzina Vega: Let's talk about how it would happen. There has been legislation introduced that would get the process started to Puerto Rico becoming a state. What needs to happen?

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: The constitution gives Congress the power to admit States, and it doesn't really spell anything else out. The bill that's been introduced in Congress, the Puerto Rico Statehood Admission Act, responds to the referendum in November by making an offer of statehood to Puerto Rico depending on a second vote. The Puerto Rico Statehood Admission Act actually proceeds quite cautiously. It recognizes the majority vote for statehood in November and appropriately makes an offer of statehood, but then it asks Puerto Ricans to vote a second time and confirm their desire for statehood. Upon that second vote, the president would have a year to issue a proclamation declaring Puerto Rico a state.

Tanzina Vega: Christina, one of the things that we hear, and my family is from the Island of Puerto Rico. I personally was born in New York, but I've been privy to this debate my entire life. There are, as you know, two large camps and then one smaller camp. Politically, the two large camps are one is pro-statehood, one is pro-status quo, which is keeping the Commonwealth status. The smaller camp is independence. Given the events of the past couple of years with Hurricane Maria and the economic devastation on the Island, and the crumbling of the infrastructure in many ways, there are people who say that statehood is the only way to remedy that.

Then there are people who say that it's because of this relationship with the United States that Puerto Rico is in the situation that it's in and that becoming a state would only further reduce the cultural importance that Puerto Ricans have. The language, this issue of Puerto Rican culture, of identity, that it would strip that away. What are your thoughts on that?

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: I was raised on the Island and my family is there so I grew up with the debate that you described. You're absolutely right. The debate in Puerto Rico is really a debate between people who favor statehood and people who favor some version of the status quo and independence has for many decades had very little support, but I feel like it's important to clarify that even the people who support the status quo support an improved version of it. No one across the board supports the actual status quo, which is colonial. Puerto Ricans have, for decades, shared an overwhelming consensus, really on two things. Number one, they are opposed to continuing to be a US territory.

Nobody wants territorial status. Number two, almost all of them overwhelming majorities support remaining us citizens. Puerto Ricans value their US citizenship and want to keep it that way. In my view, statehood is what absolutely should follow because statehood is the only way to cease being a territory while continuing to have guaranteed US citizenship and continue to have a union with the United States. I believe that Puerto Rico's economic crisis is very much related to its colonial status. It's also the case that because Puerto Rico has no voice in Washington, it receives fewer federal benefits.

Federal assistance in the wake of crises is less than it should be. It's slow. Puerto Rican's simply don't have the leverage that all US citizens should have in Washington to get what they need. As for the cultural question, you are absolutely right to point to it. Those Puerto Ricans who want to remain US citizens but feel skeptical of or resistant to statehood are worried that statehood would have a detrimental effect on Puerto Rico's culture, that we would no longer be different and unique, that we would be assimilated into American culture. My view is that Puerto Rico has already been part of the United States for 123 years and we have sustained our vibrant and beautiful culture and we can do that as a state.

What statehood would bring is not the loss of culture, but political empowerment.

Tanzina Vega: I'm going to ask you two questions to follow-up on that. One is that the financial effects here. One of the things that we're seeing right now, Puerto Rico is being fiscally governed by a fiscal oversight review board, the PROMESA board. For many people they've been a controversial figure, but we know that what's happening on the Island to large effect is the privatization of the Island, of many of the public lands, including beaches. Of course, we did a report recently about wealthy Americans who are running to Puerto Rico because of its tax shelter and tax haven status.

My question to you, Christina, is how would statehood curb that? The big concern is that Puerto Rico's natural resources in particular are being raided and destroyed by Western investors. Also that, again, the cultural fabric of the Island could be effected by those folks who were going down there just because of the tax breaks. What financial effect would becoming a state, would it curb some of this wayward investment that we're seeing?

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: You put it better than I could. Puerto Rico is undergoing all of these effects right now as a territory. Greater equality in the tax treatment of Puerto Rico might make it somewhat less attractive to certain people who want to go down there for loopholes that wouldn't be possible under statehood. States themselves, under their state tax systems, can have varying benefits that they provide their residents. Puerto Rico could potentially remain attractive to certain people. Long story short, the problem of people going down to Puerto Rico, extracting its natural resources, availing themselves of tax advantages. Those problems would only be more effectively addressed by statehood because Puerto Rico would have political power.

Those problems are not prevented by the current status in which Puerto Rico is still part of the United States. For these purposes, people can move back and forth, and there are particular loopholes that might prove attractive to people that wouldn't apply under statehood.

Tanzina Vega: Finally, what has the Biden administration signalled about statehood so far, Christina?

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: President Biden, when he was a candidate last fall, before he became president, made clear that he supports statehood. That Puerto Ricans must choose it for it to become a reality and that if they choose it, the federal government must respond. Those three points are exactly right. He is an American who favors statehood. Why? Because he favors equality and representation for us citizens, as he should, but he agrees that Puerto Ricans have to make that choice, which they did in November. The Admission Act would provide for them to confirm. He stated clearly that the federal government must respond to their choice, as it does with the Admission Act.

Since president Biden was elected, the government has confirmed, the administration has confirmed that it supports a referendum in Puerto Rico, which is part of what the Admission Act provides for. The key is that expression of support for statehood from president Biden. That's exactly the position he should have and that's exactly the position he made clear he had.

Tanzina Vega: Christina Ponza Krauss is a professor of law at Columbia University. Christina, thanks for joining us.

Christina Ponsa-Kraus: Thank you.

Tanzina Vega: We've been talking about the political future of Puerto Rico in light of two competing bills being proposed in Congress and what each would mean for the Island's 3 million residents. As we've already heard, the divide in Washington mirrors what we see among Puerto Ricans both on and off the Island. Some of you are calling for statehood.

JP Jesus Perez: My name is JP Jesus Perez. I'm from Bayamón, Puerto Rico and I support statehood, like thousands and hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans. We in Puerto Rico value our citizenship. We call it union permanet permanente, or permanent union with the United States. Puerto Rico has been part of this fabric of this country for over 100 years. I want everybody to be able to vote and have full civil rights.

Speaker 1: When Puerto Rico engages in the democratic process in a free and fair election and votes for statehood, they are determining for themselves their preferred status option at the ballot box. the plebiscito in the November election was a vote of self-determination and a vote for statehood.

Tanzina Vega: Others are opting for independence.

Albert: My name is Albert [unintelligible 00:33:19] and I'm from San Juan, Puerto Rico, but I live in Denver. I support independence for Puerto Rico because it is a nation and nations should govern themselves, not be absorbed by the country that invaded them in an imperialist frenzy 120 years ago. Throughout most of our history, a majority of Puerto Ricans have one of the colonial status quo that didn't make it any more right or just. We have to go deep in on that and we have to look at the history. Anyone who rejects Puerto Rican independence, because the Island is so poor and vulnerable that they think it wouldn't be able to stand on its own two feet should ask themselves how it got that way when the US has been in charge all this time.

History also includes supression and persecution of the Puerto Rican Independence Movement. It can't be just about heeding the will of the people on one vote last year. We have to also care about how the wealth of Puerto Rican people has been ignored and subverted by the United States for decades.

Tanzina Vega: Many of you are instead reflecting on the process of figuring out the path forward and the idea of self-determination that's being pushed for by Congresswoman Nydia Velazquez and others.

Edil Sepulveda: My name is Edil Sepulveda. I am a Puerto Rican living in the Washington DC area. I am co-founder of Boricuas Unidos en la Diáspora. We Puerto Ricans, we need self-determination now. We are colonial subjects in an occupied land and we deserve a real serious, democratic and transparent self-determination process, which we haven't had before. That's why we all have to support this Puerto Rico self-determination act. We all have to unite together, Puerto Ricans and Americans, and end 123 years of colonialism once and for all.

Vasquez: Hi, my name is Christian Velasquez. I'm originally from Bayamon, Puerto Rico, currently residing in North Carolina. I am supportive of the self-determination process and the bill submitted by Congresswoman Velazquez. We need a process that is inclusive, that is just, that is democratic and that will represent all the different viewpoints in communities within and outside of the Island.

Reggie: Hi, this is Reggie. I'm a Puerto Rican who currently resides on the Island. I actually take issue with the premise that it's either a statehood or self determination. They are not mutually exclusive. We have the people, our elected representatives organize that plebiscite and 53% of voters voted for statehood. I think the question right now that people have to answer, or the question that needs to be asked, is do you support what the people support, do you support democracy?

Tanzina Vega: If you have something to add, record a voice memo and email it to takeawaycallers@gmail.com or go to thetakeaway.org and click on contact us to record your answers straight into your computer or phone. This is The Takeaway.

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